It is actually a bit worse though with the way Aillio put limitations on the complete use of RoasTime. Unless you are connected and willing to do their “cloud dance”, you don’t get the full use of post roast analysis, bean inventory, etc. It is poor form to tell customers (who paid several thousand dollars for your product) “oh sorry, but you can’t have full RT software function unless you roast our way”.
I hear ya about social-forcing-cones. Whenever possible I choose what roads I want to travel with people communications or software products. After this post, I’m going to stop talking about what Aillio needs to do (unless I need them for warranty). Here in their own forum, I don’t see the level of acknowledgement or participation from them with the few people that are willing to help them.
The obvious things that you are encountering in these RT betas should be 1st caught by Aillio’s own testing. I question what kind of testing they are actually doing with the software when they don’t catch the obvious and leave it for users to find. They should also make the testing environment a 2-way street of engagement or they don’t deserve the help they are getting IMO.
Anyway, I’m not going to concern myself with it further. I’ll continue roasting using Artisan (which works well) and hope that Aillio one-day “wakes up and smells the ”
Blockquote I also think Aillio made a mistake (that other roast manufacturers don’t do) in making the user participate in the “cloud” just to have full use of the RT software’s capability
When we started designing the new RT we considered many different technologies and we talked to other people in the industry who makes roast software. A few of those companies are now fully web based and one need to be logged in and online to roast. Their market research showed that people do not want to install software… We thought that a bit extreme and went ahead with software which can be used standalone, offline - even though this requires a lot more resources to do.
Since RT 2.3.x we have a new logging system to help our supporters when a bullet has a problem and this is helping us tremendously to speed up support and make a correct diagnosis. Furthermore it helps us to improve both the bullet and the software so we can push the limits of what is possible.
So yes, we decided to leave some features on the cloud side of things where it made sense. If you are uncomfortable for whatever reason but you still want the benefits (learning from other roasters across the world) then you could sign up with an anonymous email / user name.
Lets list some benefits of logging into roast.world (some will come in the future)
The good:
Aillio has your data for cloud backup. If your PC fails you have all your profiles backed up
Access your profiles on different devices - not just one computer
Simultaneously see your roasting on different devices (future)
Sharing roast profiles with your friends
Easy to find your beans - saves you a lot of time
Find green bean vendors and maybe try some new coffees
Compare roasts of the same bean with others
Discuss roasting and profiles
Help other roast better coffee
Aillio can improve the bullet by analyzing how they run
Aillio can give better support by knowing the problems better
I am sure I forgot many more
The bad:
Aillio has your data
People can steal my roast profiles (if they know who you are)
I also wanted to jump in to let you know that we are here and we are listening and we are growing, too. These past few days we’ve been moving office to a much bigger (and nicer!) location in which we can spread our wings, so to speak. We’ve hired new staff in all departments – from engineers to coders to professional cuppers to customer support – with a mind to both improve support and also to push forward with what has made the brand special to begin with: innovation.
We know there are things we can do better (including beta release notes, which clearly got lost in the recent reshuffling) and we appreciate all the feedback we get from everyone for that reason. We’ve also been very responsive to that feedback. We began as a tiny company with a couple of employees trying to do something very unlike anyone else in the industry. We would never have made it on our own. Fortunately, we’ve been blessed with a community of early-adopting users who have been very supportive of our vision. The respect is mutual, and we’ve done everything we can to help our early adopters grow with us by offering our latest technology to them for very low prices, even if it requires a little technical expertise to install. As some of you mentioned, this choice comes with a cost, of course, but it is one we’re happy to absorb for these reasons.
That said, as evidenced by the new office move and additional staff, we’re definitely moving into a new era for the Bullet R1 and Aillio in general. We’re hyper-aware that our early adopter “coffee geek” customers are of a different mindset than some of our future customers. As both the number of customers and expectations for after-sales service begin to shift, we will need to devote more resources both to supporting newbies and to ensuring extremely stable platforms for our business-minded customers. And that’s exactly what we’re doing now.
This is a very long way of letting you know that we’re not resting on our laurels here in Taiwan. I think that’s going to become pretty obvious in the second half of 2019 once we begin to realize some of these new efficiencies. We will keep getting better.
@jacob your observations are in common with many other software companies. I’m not roasting wearing a tin foil hat to prevent mind control or loss of my profiling trade secrets .
Two observations - I’d appreciate an opportunity to mark a roast unpublished or private so that only I see it. Sometimes I have a roast that just well isn’t great and I’d hate for someone to waste their green finding and using it.
Second the sharing of profiles is to me at least a little obscure. I did it once downloading a profile for a bean I just got but I can’t recall now how. Also with the advent of the IBTS, I don’t think that gets reflected in the data for things like charge temp ?
Just to clarify a few things. The sole thing that I’m “uncomfortable” about with RoasTime is one thing. The decision by Aillio to prevent me from having full post-roast analysis unless I’m willing to roast online. I have no “protective” feelings and am not a “tin foil hat person”. I could care less if anyone knows what I roast or my blend components other than not wanting to have failed roasts placed into the public cloud. Also, “creating an anonymous email or user name” as you suggested doesn’t address anything about not having full post-roast analysis unless the user roasts on-line.
Having been in the mainframe computing industry for 44yrs and a coffee-roaster for 20yrs, I full well know the benefits of data gathering for product improvement. It is not a new concept. That is also not my concern about what Aillio is doing.
Your assumption that roasters wouldn’t mind that you purposely block post-roast analysis capability from locally (non-cloud) roasts is the problem. That was a mistaken assumption that really only serves the “everyone wants to roast in the cloud” justification.
I hear all of your positions. I just don’t agree with some of them. You have a customer, who instead of being given a simple option to have full use of RoasTime (whether online or offline), has to use 3rd party software just to have a fully functioning roasting tool. So, I’ll continue to provide support and money to “industry accepted” roasting software that got it right and gets that many coffee-roasters do like “full local control”. That control includes the software that they use to roast.
I think you are assuming that roast.world’s analyzer is a finished product. It isn’t – in fact Roast.World will be undergoing an overhaul because we know it could be much better in every way (See above post about additional hires.) The focus for Roast.World will be about sharing and pooling data and experiences in a way that makes it useful (and fun!) for everyone who logs in.
Perhaps you’re also assuming that RT2 is a finished product – it isn’t. The focus this year has been on RT2 – note: NOT roast.world – and we are continually adding new features to it, and customer feedback has played a big role in prioritizing those workflows. The first version of RT2 didn’t even include playback, or overlays. You can do both now. And now we also offer the ability to download roast profiles from RW and create ‘recipes’ based off time or temperature changes that can be played back automatically. If you only want to create recipes from your own profiles or from scratch, that is your choice.
At this point the only advantage the roast analyzer in Roast.World has over RT2’s latest beta,which includes post-roast overlays, is that you can overlay more than one profile post roast. In short, if the roast analyzer is the only thing that upsets you, then you probably don’t need to feel upset. The advantages of having cloud functionality are incredible and a great many people will be reaping them in the not-too-distant future, but whether you want to join them is ultimately your choice.
Thanks for that feedback, it touches on some of our office discussions, too. Roast.World and the way it interacts with RT2 is going to be a big focus in the latter half of 2019. I think it’s gonna be really cool.
I know that the “Error Log” tab can be misunderstood so I hope that RT and The Cloud might evolve for some remote level diagnostics when uploading roast profiles - so if someone raises an issue that their power suddenly went out (or rather P0 but the machine itself was running) there might be something tracked to indicate what and why (overheating induction coils etc). If you can get something like that up and running, I think it would be a great step.
As we’ve speculated in other forum posts, keeping new features funded from the original roaster purchase is tricky, so some of us (me at least) have indicated a willingness to try to contribute to keeping new features funded somehow, whether that be donation ware or some kind of recurring subscription. Leaving that out there because I for one know that there’s no free lunch and want to keep new features coming for the Bullet. If you are all in fact independently wealthy millionaires who want to philanthropically bestow new software and features on us, then I of course take that offer back
There are some things we/I might get a little grouchy about here (like having release notes for RT and R1 firmware) but deep down, that’s because we/I want you to succeed. Having a single point of information (manuals/FAQ/software) is I think one of the first things to address and if that’s going to be Roast.World.2.0 then great.
Oh we’re very much in agreement about streamlining the troubleshooting with automation. We’re getting raw debug files now that can be super useful. In an older version of RT we tested a feature where we would receive warnings here if a user’s board was overheating, so I was actually able to email a user who was unaware their Bullet was overheating and let them know they needed to clean their IR glass. I hope we can do something similar (or better) in the future. Thanks again for the feedback, it’s nice to know.
Also, don’t worry about the release notes. We’re on it. That was a slip-up on our part and we appreciate everyone reminding us how important those notes can be when choosing whether or not to work with a beta or new release. (Keeping in mind that there is always the risk of bugs in any beta… that’s why betas exist!)
Reading all this, I must say, I am very happy with Aillio. I am an early adopter an I feel Aillio is doing much more than I expected of a hardware producer. They are innovative and let their early customers share in innovations as the IBTS. They developed dedicated software. They have a good customer service (yes I had my part of malfunctions) Of course there are some glitches from time to time. We give them feed back and they learn from it. I don’t feel like some of us here who constantly and repeatedly gripe about things Aillio did wrong in an accusing way. We don’t have to use alpha or beta versions if we don’t want to risk a bug. And if we don’t want to be part of this development, we can always use Artisan.
I’ve only completed 43 roasts with my Bullet, so haven’t felt the need to get adventurous with the software/firmware.
When I first bought it, I saw a great deal of interaction with this forum by Aillio, so felt good about my ability to advance my roasting, and get troubleshooting help. Seemed like Aillio disappeared from the forum for a while and with other users reporting some problems, I stayed on RT 2.2 and FW512. I’m very glad to see Aillio back and addressing some of the comments, and now feel better about upgrading and trying Recipes.
Thanks to the guys like PapasCup, Bruce, Stuart, and others for spending time here discussing their thoughts and Aillio for responding.
I’m drinking better coffee than I ever imagined right now.
Why would you assume such things about me after having been here daily for months since purchasing the Bullet? Seems the one that is “assuming” is more you than I. With Aillio’s noticeable absence of participation here for lengthy periods, it would have been easy to “assume” many things about Aillio.
I have attempted to get you folks to come out and talk to your customers. I have been here helping people every day and my complaints have been to get Aillio to respond to their customer’s concerns and tell us what they are doing. It should not have to come to that to get you guys to come forth, but In that regard I did accomplish something and will move on.
Thank you @kafei & @jacob for taking the time to give us a further peek behind Stuart’s famous ‘curtain’. I’m pleased to hear your enthusiastic insight about Aillio plans for R.W, RT & Bullet f/w. I’m pretty happy with where your (& our) collective efforts have gotten us recently and I look forward to participating to the extent I can offer anything constructive with the user-tested s/w development. I had a similar happy experience a few years ago with DxO OpticsPro photo-editing s/w and see this (or any) collaboration with users as a necessary element of any s/w development program.
re: Stuart’s …
I’m with Stuart. x2
Oh, and “don’t worry about the release note”? Mmmm… I don’t think so. We’ll probably keep nagging y’all!
I had no problem using line-color selection with 2.5.0-beta running Win 10. Are you using the Mac? If so, have you tried 2.5.1-alpha? May have been picked up there.
clicked Update before exiting? [It grates that I have to click Cancel to exit Setup!]
If that sequence didn’t work I’m stumped. I’m not using anything special in the way of a computer… a 6 year old Samsung laptop, Logitech mouse, and I let Windows update whenever it has the urge since it is a losing battle to keep any sense of control over the update process.
Hey Bruce,
Yes, all of those steps. Several times. Profile shows the changes but program does not reflect them. Going to try uninstall/delete folder/re-install…
Thanks for the help!
Will
”
.
